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| Aug 22nd 2007, 04:24 Isegrim Nikolaidis |
Totally Flabbergasted
Edited by moderator Aug 24th 2007, 04:56 |
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| I am a newcomer to B&T (and the stockexchange for that matter) So I say upfront that I am probably one of those moranic leaches that I read about in this forum. (Maybe they should change the active group title from Ancapistan citizen to this). What I would like to know is how else then to become a daytraider when there is no divdend payed, (You are not the only one trying to suport your ill elderly parents Mr Brautigan),and the stocks he owns does not increase in value, wich is weird considdering the fact that B&T must be rapidly growing. Also the intention of aquiring 300 Sim's by the end of 2007 seems to be not working as planned. Currently there are 39 or 40 sim's if I understood correctly, please do correct me if I am wrong about this but it would be unpossible to even reach a 100 before the end of 2007 without the speculations of these moronic leaches. I have no doubt about the fact that the long term investors also speculate on the sentiment of the day. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 05:11 IntLibber Brautigan |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| See, this is whats so entertaining about the SL capital markets, the misconceptions you see about money and investing, as well as just basic math, every day. Firstly, your day trading doesn't put capital in the hands of BNT. You buy some shares on the market, you sell some shares on the market, in the daily cycle of market activity. That doesn't put any capital in the hands of BNT to grow its NAV. Day trading also does not, generally, increase long term share price, beyond possibly increasing public awareness of the stock if day traders are able to hype the stock to their marks. It is those investors who buy and hold a stock, and buy more repeatedly, in a long term stock investment plan, that increase stock prices over time. This is evinced by the fact that there were essentially two people who kept HCL stock up at the WSE, myself and Shaun Altman. We did some limit trades on both sides of the market, but share price was elevated because we mostly bought and held the stock, by the millions. When HCL management betrayed the two of us, we became disinterested in the stock, and sold off our holdings. HCL is now in the tank, and its staying in the tank, even as the day traders wrestle over the pickings of the corpse of that once great company. BNT stock has dropped for one reason: Ginko held 11 million shares of it, and now holds 10 million shares. They have had bills to pay, and the way the GPB is being rigged by the management at WSE, Ginko is in for a rough ride. There is hope, there are groups forming to raise funds to buy GPB stock off the market in order to raise its price to the point where Ginko can start buying those bonds off the market at 1 L$ as WSE demands, though whether those groups are truly interested in this, or are merely trying to get the public to build interest in the bonds so they can unload theirs at a profit remains to be seen. In the mean time, the only people profiting off GPB is the day traders and WSE itself. As for our growth rate: this shows another lack of perception. We started at 1/2 sim in October, we grew to 10 sims in December, 12 in January, 27 in June, and 39 in July. Thus we exhibit a growth rate that varies between 270%-6000% every six months, or between 45% - 1000% per month. Because this is a growth RATE, this implies that we have a doubling rate that ranges from 3 weeks to two months. Projecting most conservatively based on past performance, this implies that we will reach 100 sims in 3-4 months (i.e. December), and 300 sims 3-4 months after that, assuming the growth rate does not retard over time. Even if we further conservatively assume the growth rate drops by half with each cycle, this still means we reach 300 sims by the end of 2008. As previously stated in our prospectus, we understand the economics of exponential growth, and we know how to achieve it. Dividends do not achieve exponential growth. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 05:48 Kailen Juran |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| In regard to day-traders, IntLibber is absolutely correct in that it neither adds nor reduces the stock's real value, which is based on the net holdings of the company. Day-trading also does not add or subtract from the market value of the company as that plays off of the daily cycle of buys and sells. It's the availability of the stock that determines price. Simply put, more shares on the market dilutes its price; fewer shares available for purchase makes them rarer and thus more valuable. I disagree slightly in that day-traders are leaches. Rather, they are vultures, not itself a flattering remark. They simply await for someone to buy from them or sell to them, especially if someone is buying or selling with caution thrown to the wind. Day traders just take advantage of investors buying and selling at market (for the most part). I speculate that if it weren't profitable, no one would be doing it. Another point is that day-trading can be an actual investment strategy. One can buy stock and sell the same value of the stock when the individual price is higher, keeping the excess for investment. It doesn't withdraw the stock from the market quite as fast, but it does work to minimise people's risk as the shares they own come at no overall cost, and not everyone has the funds to buy up everything at once. Just a thought there. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 09:09 Isegrim Nikolaidis |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| These are very solid and reasuring awnsers and convinced me that B&T is the right choise for me to start a long term investment plan. Thank you for taking away the last bit of doubt that I had. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 11:48 Gxeremio Dimsum |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| "Firstly, your day trading doesn't put capital in the hands of BNT." Not directly, but in the long run a stock with growing value DOES bring more investors eager to support BNT. I'm having a hard time understanding your obsessive phobia of "day traders", who seem to be by your definition people who hold stock for less than 2 years. Do you basically think a stock should have an IPO, then no one should buy or sell for years and years? Wouldn't that, you know, stall the stock price? "BNT stock has dropped for one reason: Ginko held 11 million shares of it, and now holds 10 million shares. They have had bills to pay, and the way the GPB is being rigged by the management at WSE, Ginko is in for a rough ride." This is actually a golden opportunity for the company to buy back stocks at less than half the price it sold them for. Putting these stocks out of circulation would be a HUGE boost to your shareholders. And that's what your job is: to deliver value to your shareholders. So c'mon, help out GPB and your shareholders by buying back as much stock as you can below, say, .60 a share. If we could get the number of outstanding shares down from 130 million to, say, 100 million, you'd really be doing something great. "As for our growth rate: this shows another lack of perception. We started at 1/2 sim in October, we grew to 10 sims in December, 12 in January, 27 in June, and 39 in July. Thus we exhibit a growth rate that varies between 270%-6000% every six months, or between 45% - 1000% per month." Hang on. It's almost the end of August, and there are still 39 sims. So that's a monthly growth rate of 0%. If you want to maintain a 45% growth rate, you'd better buy another 18 sims this week. "As previously stated in our prospectus, we understand the economics of exponential growth, and we know how to achieve it. Dividends do not achieve exponential growth." Perhaps. But the current system is creating not only a loss of share value, but untold opportunity cost for your shareholders who are NOT selling. Unless you're an employee of BNT, the growth rate of the company is no boon UNLESS IT RESULTS IN INCREASED SHARE VALUE. Please focus on increasing the value of BNT stock by issuing dividends and reducing the outstanding shares. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 12:40 Dalia Ahn |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| umm!!! it seems to be an interesting discussion here. Day traders are being compared to insects and birds.. etc? i wounder how the market will look like without day traders!!!!!. "day trading dont put capital in the hands of BNT" so what exactly put capital into the hands of BNT? i mean you fill up the IPO and then what? no one should buy nor sell your stock cause it doesnt put extra cash into your hands? if day trading is that bad why dont we just abolish it and force shareholders to keep their shares until the CEO of the company allows them to sell them???. and "exponential growth?" dont you think that this growth should reflect aon the share price? its a simple equation and investor invest and he/she expects a return on his/her investment! right?? the question is where is that return. i guess the only way to get any return on BNT now is through day trading!!! so lets not abolish day trading for now!!!! :) |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 20:16 IntLibber Brautigan |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| Firstly Gx, a day trader is pretty easy to define: they buy and sell stock on a daily basis, i.e. they do not hold the stock as a long term investment. This has nothing to do with the length of time a company has been listed on a market. Every time someone has IM'd me about dividends, I've checked whether they are BNT shareholders or not. With possibly one exception, not a single one of them were, indicating they were a day trader only interested in generating hype and volatility in the stock in order to allow them to profit without benefitting BNT or its actual shareholders, they themselves had no actual interest or investment in our company itself. A day trader is distinguished from a share-holder by the fact that a day trader trades the stock but does not hold it, the share holder holds the stock. I don't mind stockholders who want to day trade as well, its often a smart strategy to build up stock holdings out of day trading profits. The day traders I have heard from have not held even 1 share of BNT. As for buying back more stock: we are at present more concerned about keeping our assets current, paying tier, through the difficult summer recession. We see lindex currency activity increasing markedly, so we expect the economy to improve markedly in september. Its more important to get BNT through August and into the recovery. As I said previously, we've bought back more than 400k shares of BNT on the 13th. Thats the limit of what we are prepared to do at this time. We may do another buyback in September depending on economic conditions, but we'd prefer to focus on growth of company NAV to benefit ALL shareholders, not just those who want to sell. Also, Gx, there are not even close to 30 million shares publicly held. I hold 110 million shares at present, as previously stated. As for company growth: yes we have not bought any new sims this month. Economic conditions did not warrant it, obviously. We expect conditions to improve in September and will be putting together plans for the next sim buy. As previously stated, we do not buy sims every month. I was describing the company's long term growth pattern, from 1/2 sim last October, to 39 sims today. Our growth has not been linear, its been exponential, and it will remain exponential. The previous commenters post was mired in linear thinking, which is why I explained our exponential growth history. As for increased share value, our share value has increased constantly. What has not increased is share PRICE, because of several reasons: a) this is an irrational market with irrational investors b) the markets do not provide sufficient data on companys for investors to evaluate them and compare them against each other by common metrics like P/E and PEG as well as other metrics. c) one market in particular has diluted the whole capital market of SL by irresponsibly shotgunning dozens of frivolous IPOs from companies that poofed at a high rate run by CEOs without any RL ID verification. d) investors persist in foolishly investing in these frivolous IPOs as if they are promising investments. Investors also foolishly and repeatedly sell their older investments at prices below their buy price, causing them losses, thinking they will make up their losses in IPOs for other companies. Share PRICES rise to meet share VALUE when investors act rationally and choose to buy shares up until share price meets current value, and often to exceed share value depending on what investors feel is the future share value. This, of course, depends on investors to act rationally. Until investors stop investing in frivolous IPOs run by anonymous avatars on exchanges that refuse to pursue fraudulent CEOs, prices will continue to remain irrationally low. One thing you folks in the press can do is to publish estimated P/E and PEG data based on company announcements about profitability, until the exchanges start providing more verified forms of this data. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 20:28 IntLibber Brautigan |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| one more reason why share prices have dropped, and dropped across the markets, is because SL capital markets are very incestuous. What I mean by this is that companies are investing in each other with their own IPO capital, while taking out cuts for themselves. Nobody is trying to bring in new capital from RL from new investors. Luke used to do promotions in aussie media, but thats about it. We are going to break this cycle, we are starting a campaign of RL advertising, registration for SL through our website, and delivering investors to our estate via our own orientation island. By bringing investors into our sims specifically, we will guarantee a loyal investor base that will raise BNT stock prices for the long term, fill our sims, and feed our company growth into the future. Rational investors would look at this strategy as proof that we are being responsible, forward looking, and growth oriented. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 21:20 Isegrim Nikolaidis |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| Now I am getting worried again, because it seems that I did have some valid arguments. I have been checking up on some matters and every one I asked says that the first responsebilety of a company is to its shareholders, and wether they are daytrades or long term investors has nothing to do with it. One share is one vote. they also stated that a shareholder is to be compensatated for the risk he takes for putting his money in the company. what I mean to say is, when I put my money on even the most casual bank account SL there is already a daily intrest rate between (0.13%/0.25%). Now I know that the most of us won't make even a dent with the amount of shares we hold in B&T, so having an influence on company desiscions is non existent. and futher more if daytrading does not add to the company value it does not deminish it either because they only buy and sell the shares they own amoung them selfs and not those of the long term investors that hold on to them. also I have been told that to make a long term investment grow is to buy more shares with the dividends earned from the shares you already own. One can not expect that people keep pouring in more and more money without getting compensated for the risk they take. |
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| Aug 22nd 2007, 23:09 IntLibber Brautigan |
Re: Totally Flabbergasted | |
| Yet people have done just that with growth stocks for hundreds of years. Don't get me wrong, day trading is an okay strategy for building ones stock holdings in a company, but as a means of just extracting profits, it does nothing for either the company or the shareholders. The people who bug about dividends in SL tend to want to buy the stock in expectation of dividends, then sell the stock at a higher price as soon as dividends are paid. They have no interest in the long term growth of the company. As we have repeatedly stated, since our IPO, we are focused on growth. Our stock value is based on our NAV. Our share value is entirely dependent upon how rational the market is on reflecting NAV in the stock price. Price does not equal share value in an irrational market. If you consider yourself a rational investor interested in long term growth, then BNT is a wise investment choice. SL needs more investors like that. |
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